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#5061 Barid Bel Medar

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:21 AM

Just two things, Barid.
First, what made you think the a'dam and Sad Bracelets were made in the AoL? I'm not completely sure about the DB (the first copy was cuendillar, so perhaps it was?), but we know when the a'dam came to be.

Secondly, reread LTT's reaction to Rand's channeling the TP, and tell me if you think he ever touched it himself. I guess it's funny to talk of LTT like a real person; Tell me if Rand has ever touched it before, that he remembers.


1.The Domination Band we know comes from the AoL, when Semirhage uses it on Rand she comments on how she had always wanted to use it on LTT and we can also assume that a female version was also available, or at least researched. You are correct about the a'dam though, I just remembered it being mentioned as a post-AoL thing.

2. I am not saying that he actually channelled it, although I don't rule it out, but I read it as he was familiar with at least sensing it. Granted, LTT is LOATHE to touch the stuff, and probably never used it, but at least has some experience with touching it. In regards to the question of the Guardian, LTT need not have actually channelled it in any case, simply having access would allow him to confirm that he could or could not channel it in a certain environment.

Unless you know of a way he could recognize the TP ?

True, he does not "say" (heh, how else can you describe the voice?) the TP specifically, and he says "HIM" (presumably the DO). That is a fair enough point I suppose.

But again, it comes down to the fact that I do not know what other situation LTT/Rand would have recognized the TP.

(If you were thinking when he touched the DO to seal the bore, I suppose that could be true, I have no idea if touching the DO is comparable to the TP, so i cannot comment, unless you have something that states it is?.)

Also worth mentioning, although the point cannot really be confirmed or denied, the DO seems to be allowing Rand access, as bait of sorts. Is it too much of a leap to suggest it did the same with LTT?

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#5062 yoniy0

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:16 AM

Semirhage said nothing about wanting to collar LTT. She simply calls Rand Lews Therin, and she said she was waiting to collar him. As in, ever since Egenin gave them that first DB to duplicate. At least, that's the simplest explanation (so until someone who read the BWB comes here with a different answer, I see no reason to assume she had knowledge of it before the Breaking. Remember, Rand didn't know them in KoD's A Plain Wooden Box; Nynaeve had to tell him what they were).

Now, LTT's voice said "That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM." Does that sound like memories of familiarity with the TP? To me, it sounds like someone who's aware of the existence of the TP, but has never touched it, and never would had he the opportunity. The same way that I knew exactly what it was before LTT suggested it, before Semirhage's reaction could confirm it. A third reservoir, neither saidin nor saidar? What else could it be?

EDIT: sorry, Firefox crashed a few times, so I wanted to make sure the post goes through. I forgot to say, the game the DO plays this time around isn't the same as last. Last time, LTT was a full grown man, sure of himself (but more fragile, more arrogant). This time, Rand was a youth. The DO tried to break his spirit, and Rand confesses that, were he still LTT, it would've succeeded. That seems as good a proof as any that the DO never tried the same with LTT (although, he sure did cause him grief. Just not for the same end). It's not surprising to me that LTT was never tempted with the TP.

Edited by yoniy0, 11 April 2012 - 04:19 AM.

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#5063 Barid Bel Medar

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:14 AM

Semirhage said nothing about wanting to collar LTT. She simply calls Rand Lews Therin, and she said she was waiting to collar him. As in, ever since Egenin gave them that first DB to duplicate. At least, that's the simplest explanation (so until someone who read the BWB comes here with a different answer, I see no reason to assume she had knowledge of it before the Breaking. Remember, Rand didn't know them in KoD's A Plain Wooden Box; Nynaeve had to tell him what they were).

Now, LTT's voice said "That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM." Does that sound like memories of familiarity with the TP? To me, it sounds like someone who's aware of the existence of the TP, but has never touched it, and never would had he the opportunity. The same way that I knew exactly what it was before LTT suggested it, before Semirhage's reaction could confirm it. A third reservoir, neither saidin nor saidar? What else could it be?


Whoops, seems you are right about the Domination Band. Jeez I am getting rusty with this, too much time away from the forums and haven't read the books in a while.

HERIDFAN
How did Moghedien know about sad bracelets [Domination Band]? Semirhage said in The Gathering Storm that they were made after the Forsaken were imprisoned.
BRANDON SANDERSON
I believe Moghedien said she'd been doing some research about the Breaking and had learned about them.


As to LTT reaction, fair enough, it makes sense, although he could be referring to the fact that it was possibly accessed through Moridin, which is pretty unique and "impossible". However, I think that the point is moot really. Your point is valid, until we get more information, there is not much more to say about it.

Same with the possibility of the DO acting differently towards Rand. It does make sense what you say, and I am inclined to agree with your point, however, we simply don't know enough about it to even make any reasonable assumption. (I also include my theory in this as well)

Edited by Barid Bel Medar, 11 April 2012 - 05:15 AM.

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#5064 Torn Shadow

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:22 AM

It is possible that a connection with the TP leaves the Dark One vunerable to someone in a way, which makes using it as bait a gamble for him.

I think LTT knew because he knew the DO was a source of power avaliable to both men and women, and it certainly wasn't Saidin Rand was holding.

#5065 Theodril

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:28 AM

Whenever I read about the TP, I cannot help but wonder how much of the taint Nynaeve saw engulfing Rand's mind is from using the TP and how much is from Saidin? I would think that using the TP would somehow "extinguish" the Light in a mind and turn that person, or move him closer, to the Shadow.
"You trouble me so, Rand al'Thor," she said without a bit of heat. "Light, sometimes I think the Creator made you just to trouble me."

======================================

A lion on the high plains was something very different. Toy was loose on the high plains, now. She felt a chill. What sort of man had she entangled herself with? After all this time, she realized, she had hardly a clue.

#5066 mb

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:41 PM

Ghenjei Tower; is/was there a limit for that like there was for the doorways?
If so, what is/was that limit?
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#5067 yoniy0

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:42 PM

A limit for what, @mb? What sort of limit?
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#5068 Suttree

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:45 PM

A limit for what, @mb? What sort of limit?


Like how many times you can enter?
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#5069 TootThatHorn

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:03 PM

ive got a question. when in the AoL they bored through and found the GLotD, like how deep did they bore? was it shallow or all the way? and if it was all the way then why doesnt he come out of his "prison"? to me it sounds more like a window than a door, if that makes sense...maybe since he exists outside the pattern he cant really be where the pattern exists, but can influence it much more? this is why i think we will hear the great lord, but we will never actually see him, or even have a major showdown, i know rand plans to annihilate him, but would that be possible from another plane? the karaethon cycle at the beginning of tGH says "Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before and shall be born again, time without end." so, a bad translation? a prophecy that wont be fulfilled? or true? guess thats a few questions lol

#5070 mb

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:09 PM

A limit for what, @mb? What sort of limit?

Like how many times you can enter?

Entering, yes; also using either race through it, and perhaps also exiting.
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#5071 RandA lThor

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:45 PM

I think that the bore threatened to have the dark one free, but thanks to the efforts of Lews Therin Telamon and the Hundred Companions, they were able to seal it up in time. I think it takes a lot of time for the Dark One to escape and he doesn't just come out magically when the bore opened. I think that his power got a lot larger and that the pattern was all screwed up.

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#5072 Torn Shadow

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:14 PM

Ghenjei Tower; is/was there a limit for that like there was for the doorways?
If so, what is/was that limit?


Probably as many times as you can manage it and live. But I think you have to leave the tower before you can return, and well, that game is considered unwinnable for a reason.

Simply put, I don't think anyone has been insane enough to try more than once, and few enough survive that.

Edited by Torn Shadow, 11 April 2012 - 05:15 PM.


#5073 Sharaman

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:04 PM


Semirhage said nothing about wanting to collar LTT. She simply calls Rand Lews Therin, and she said she was waiting to collar him. As in, ever since Egenin gave them that first DB to duplicate. At least, that's the simplest explanation (so until someone who read the BWB comes here with a different answer, I see no reason to assume she had knowledge of it before the Breaking. Remember, Rand didn't know them in KoD's A Plain Wooden Box; Nynaeve had to tell him what they were).

Now, LTT's voice said "That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM." Does that sound like memories of familiarity with the TP? To me, it sounds like someone who's aware of the existence of the TP, but has never touched it, and never would had he the opportunity. The same way that I knew exactly what it was before LTT suggested it, before Semirhage's reaction could confirm it. A third reservoir, neither saidin nor saidar? What else could it be?


Whoops, seems you are right about the Domination Band. Jeez I am getting rusty with this, too much time away from the forums and haven't read the books in a while.

HERIDFAN
How did Moghedien know about sad bracelets [Domination Band]? Semirhage said in The Gathering Storm that they were made after the Forsaken were imprisoned.
BRANDON SANDERSON
I believe Moghedien said she'd been doing some research about the Breaking and had learned about them.


As to LTT reaction, fair enough, it makes sense, although he could be referring to the fact that it was possibly accessed through Moridin, which is pretty unique and "impossible". However, I think that the point is moot really. Your point is valid, until we get more information, there is not much more to say about it.

Same with the possibility of the DO acting differently towards Rand. It does make sense what you say, and I am inclined to agree with your point, however, we simply don't know enough about it to even make any reasonable assumption. (I also include my theory in this as well)


There's an earlier reference in TGS to LTT thinking of the "so-called True Power" in connection with Moridin (and IIRC, the Shadar Logoth meeting) . So he certainly knows what it is, in theory. Hardly surprising, given the AoL War. This doesn't mean he's ever accessed it though he may have heard descriptions of what it felt like. The DB is referenced several times as a tool created during the Breaking - in Moggy's convo with Nyn. It makes sense anyway, why would you need to make it until saidin had been tainted? Moggy had to research it post-escape and so presumably did Semi, given her explanation of how it worked to Rand.(Sidelight: did she recruit "volunteers" from the BT or is there another group of non-FS, DF saidin-users?) .

#5074 Luckers

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:13 AM

A limit for what, @mb? What sort of limit?

Like how many times you can enter?

Entering, yes; also using either race through it, and perhaps also exiting.


By Thom's two openings, I doubt theres a limit.

ive got a question. when in the AoL they bored through and found the GLotD, like how deep did they bore? was it shallow or all the way? and if it was all the way then why doesnt he come out of his "prison"? to me it sounds more like a window than a door, if that makes sense...maybe since he exists outside the pattern he cant really be where the pattern exists, but can influence it much more? this is why i think we will hear the great lord, but we will never actually see him, or even have a major showdown, i know rand plans to annihilate him, but would that be possible from another plane? the karaethon cycle at the beginning of tGH says "Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before and shall be born again, time without end." so, a bad translation? a prophecy that wont be fulfilled? or true? guess thats a few questions lol


The bore went all the way through the pattern, but was too small for him to do more than stick a metaphorical pinky finger through. [there's 'your dark lord is so fact joke in there somewhere, but I'm too tired to develop it with the keen wit such masterful humour deserves]

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#5075 Tyzack

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 05:11 AM

I'm pretty sure they died and never reached the Tower, but after re-reading the Rand's trip through Rhuidean, I am curious as to what became of the two "ancient" Aes Sedai who were burn away by the last of the Jenn.

Kind of a sad face moment releasing that they were probably all murdered in the middle of no-where; the last remenants of a forgetten time.

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#5076 Torn Shadow

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:24 AM

I believe they died of old age long before. Rand simply trigged a defensive weave with the battle, they were not really there.

#5077 ChaosBorn

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:53 AM

Just a thought, could the unrevealed flaw in Callandor allow for the channeling of the True Power alongside the One Power? is there any evidence angainst this?

because if not then it could provide Rand with a way to seal the dark one, especially if both Sadiar and Sadin are used.

“You can never know everything,” Lan said quietly, “and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyway.” WH- ch32


#5078 Suttree

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:04 AM

Just a thought, could the unrevealed flaw in Callandor allow for the channeling of the True Power alongside the One Power? is there any evidence angainst this?

because if not then it could provide Rand with a way to seal the dark one, especially if both Sadiar and Sadin are used.


I believe Min seems to think it will leave Rand open to some sort of outside control. Possibly like how channelers are open to the 13x13 trick? Recall the line of prophecy about how all that is the wielder of Callandor can be seized, and Min's viewing of an onyx hand holding the sword.
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#5079 ChaosBorn

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:23 AM


Just a thought, could the unrevealed flaw in Callandor allow for the channeling of the True Power alongside the One Power? is there any evidence angainst this?

because if not then it could provide Rand with a way to seal the dark one, especially if both Sadiar and Sadin are used.


I believe Min seems to think it will leave Rand open to some sort of outside control. Possibly like how channelers are open to the 13x13 trick? Recall the line of prophecy about how all that is the wielder of Callandor can be seized, and Min's viewing of an onyx hand holding the sword.


Could this outside control be from Moridin? It's obvious that Callandor has a unique purpose in the last battle and will be involved in Rand's attemept to seal or destroy the Dark One.

If Moridin was to somehow take control of Callandor and then Rand and him were to merge, like the viewing suggests, could this be the way to defeat the Dark One?

“You can never know everything,” Lan said quietly, “and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyway.” WH- ch32


#5080 Tyzack

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:01 AM

I believe they died of old age long before. Rand simply trigged a defensive weave with the battle, they were not really there.


Errr, that's what I mean. From my math 400-500 years had passed since the breaking, making these Aes Sedai pushing the mellienial mark. However, in the narrative the pair are being escorted away by the remainder of the Dai'shan Aiel, I wonder what happened to them.

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