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#21 Impressive Bosom

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 10:48 AM


Still would like to know how many sisters are nameable in the WT at present, out of the hundreds that are there. But here is another question which must have been answered before -

Is it possible Caddy has lived longer as she somehow took less oaths than the other AS?

For what it's worth, Egwene has a string of overlapping lists of AS in the tower, outside, captured by the Seanchan, run away, executed by her, etc.
With Cadsuane, her PoV etc, suggests that she has taken the three oaths, but she is also far stronger in the power than any other woman in the tower until the Supergirls landed up. Maybe her extra strength gives her a longer life?   


Maybe its one of her ter'angreal?  ;)

#22 Sharaman

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 11:14 AM



Still would like to know how many sisters are nameable in the WT at present, out of the hundreds that are there. But here is another question which must have been answered before -

Is it possible Caddy has lived longer as she somehow took less oaths than the other AS?

For what it's worth, Egwene has a string of overlapping lists of AS in the tower, outside, captured by the Seanchan, run away, executed by her, etc.
With Cadsuane, her PoV etc, suggests that she has taken the three oaths, but she is also far stronger in the power than any other woman in the tower until the Supergirls landed up. Maybe her extra strength gives her a longer life?   

Maybe its one of her ter'angreal?  ;)

Could well be - there are several she doesn't know the use of.


#23 Ragnorok

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 03:16 PM

Well it was stated in the book that she had done things to extend her life, was it not?

#24 Rocky_Outcrop

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 03:24 PM

Like stuff her head with wool?

#25 spikeymikey

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 08:05 PM

When Tam is talking to Rand, he mentions that Morgase is alive and with Perrin.  I don't recall reading about Perrin finding this out.  Am I missing something or was there just absolutely no set up for that particular revelation?  I was really curious to find out what would happen if/when Perrin found out about Morgase and it was treated in a very cavalier fashion.  I think that disappointed me more than anything else.  Except maybe Rand's little mountaintop love-fest.

#26 Terez

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 08:54 PM

When Tam is talking to Rand, he mentions that Morgase is alive and with Perrin.  I don't recall reading about Perrin finding this out.  Am I missing something or was there just absolutely no set up for that particular revelation?  I was really curious to find out what would happen if/when Perrin found out about Morgase and it was treated in a very cavalier fashion.  I think that disappointed me more than anything else.  Except maybe Rand's little mountaintop love-fest.

It's simply an issue of overlapping timelines.  We will see the revelation on screen in the next book, when Brandon catches up Perrin's plotline.  I don't feel like it's been ruined just because Tam mentioned it, though....we all knew it was going to happen.  It will be fun to read the scene regardless.

#27 Terez

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 08:59 PM


Did Rand ever tell anyone specifically that he used the True Power, or just 'i killed them' and then go about banishing caddy to the far reaches of his peripheral?


LTT obviously knew what the True Power was, and mentioned it a bit amongst the ramblings when Rand used it against Semi and Elza, as well as a few other times I believe when Rand was wrestling between it and the CK.

So Rand should have been able to guess that it was -something- other than the One Power from LTT's ramblings, but if he didn't, depending on the extent of what he knows of LTT's memories after his 'love is the answer' epiphany on the Dragonmount, he should know from that.  But aside from that, I doubt that anyone's sat down with him and told him "What you used is the TP, this is what it does", since the only people who would know are the Forsaken.

Actually, Rand figured out that Moridin was using the True Power at Shadar Logoth in Knife of Dreams, when he first recognized Moridin's face in the sickness visions.  From Lews Therin's memories, obviously, but Lews Therin didn't 'tell' him anything - he just remembered.  He knew enough about it then to know that it can't be sensed.

#28 Luckers

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 10:08 PM

How did the Dark One get Lanfear of the 'Land of the Finns'?
Sure, he is the Lord of the Grave, but we kinda know Moraine isn't dead, so i think it is safe to assume Lanfear/Cyndane wasn't killed by the ter'angreal either. Does he have some power in 'Finnland'?


We don't know. My guess is that he didn't, and that the Finns executed her--the snakes, at least, have a recorded aversion to things relating to the Shadow--but that is just conjecture.

I've often wondered this, myself. My own theory on it is that Moiraine (who we all know is an evil genius when it comes to cleverly out-manipulating others) actually used the Finn's game of wishes and such to kill Lanfear. It's also possible that Lanfear tried to channel too much and that/the Finns killed her for it. Remember- no channeling in Finnland.


It is highly unlikely that either got wishes, but if you want to discuss that you should create a thread in the General Wheel of Time Board. It's not really a simple question/simple answer scenario.

Is it possible Caddy has lived longer as she somehow took less oaths than the other AS?


Cadsuane's extended life is due to her strength in the Power.

Well it was stated in the book that she had done things to extend her life, was it not?


She says that she feels her determination extended her life, but thats codswallop. Her strength is what did it.



#29 Alyriel

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 10:45 PM

[I realize now, after listening to Brandon’s answer that I was making an assumption about the One Power too, that it is separate from the Creator because of what we have been given in the books and the BWB, but I should have asked if instead the One Power is the essence of the Creator…]

Matt: Ok. So, obviously a channeler uses the True Power. We’ve discussed this before they weave the True Power just as they weave the One Power...

Brandon: ...they do and you don’t have to learn, and so that should tell you that the weaves are similar if not identical to the One Power. There are certain things the True Power can do that are different and it goes about things in different ways, but you don’t have to relearn everything.

(my emphasis)

We've seen many times in the text, and from several different PoV's, that the male and female ways of creating any weave with the OP are quite different.  Dealing with fire, and traveling are just two examples.  Those differences are attributable to the differences between males and females of course. 

But in the quote, Brandon seems to be saying that functionally the OP and the TP are close enough that the user does not need to relearn how to create a certain weave when switching from OP to TP. 

So whether or not the OP is the essence of the Creator (if that had been asked im sure it would have been RAFO'd anyway) this connection between OP and TP has some disturbing implications for the nature of the OP.  Anyone have any insights into this?



#30 Luckers

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 12:22 AM


[I realize now, after listening to Brandon’s answer that I was making an assumption about the One Power too, that it is separate from the Creator because of what we have been given in the books and the BWB, but I should have asked if instead the One Power is the essence of the Creator…]

Matt: Ok. So, obviously a channeler uses the True Power. We’ve discussed this before they weave the True Power just as they weave the One Power...

Brandon: ...they do and you don’t have to learn, and so that should tell you that the weaves are similar if not identical to the One Power. There are certain things the True Power can do that are different and it goes about things in different ways, but you don’t have to relearn everything.

(my emphasis)

We've seen many times in the text, and from several different PoV's, that the male and female ways of creating any weave with the OP are quite different.  Dealing with fire, and traveling are just two examples.  Those differences are attributable to the differences between males and females of course.  

But in the quote, Brandon seems to be saying that functionally the OP and the TP are close enough that the user does not need to relearn how to create a certain weave when switching from OP to TP.  

So whether or not the OP is the essence of the Creator (if that had been asked im sure it would have been RAFO'd anyway) this connection between OP and TP has some disturbing implications for the nature of the OP.  Anyone have any insights into this?



This too is probably outside the simple question/simple answer range, and if you want full discussion raise it in the metaphysics section.


#31 Rocky_Outcrop

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:20 AM

You don't need to learn anything new to use TP, but if a man suddenly began using Saidar then he'd have to learn. Why is there no mention of the differences between men and woman. When making a gateway a woman brings the two points together, a man tunnells through, TP punches a whole. Closer to the male part I agree but no learning? I can not accept that I'm afraid.

#32 Sab

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:20 AM

Rand notices how folks seems happier under the Seanchan then under his rule.  Does it not seem werid that Rand takes over and most folks seems angry and yet many seem to like the rule of the Seanchan?  I think his relevation of this will push him to the bending a knee to the crystal throne.

#33 JakeBarnes

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 05:44 AM

Do the two Finn races like each other?  The game snakes and foxes makes me wonder if they're old enemies.

#34 Mr Ares

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 05:58 AM

Hi you Dragonmount Guru's!
nice thread this, so i'll ask away. (My second post, although i've read lots on these forums)
First question that comes to my mind is this: How did the Dark One get Lanfear of the 'Land of the Finns'?
Sure, he is the Lord of the Grave, but we kinda know Moraine isn't dead, so i think it is safe to assume Lanfear/Cyndane wasn't killed by the ter'angreal either. Does he have some power in 'Finnland'?
Anyone can shed some Light here? (I am aware i made some assumptions here: Moraine=alive and Lanfear=Cyndane, but they seem pretty safe)

Thanks,
Tom

We don't know for sure, but the most likely answer is that she died at some point. She didn't die when she went through - a Cyndane POV states she was a prisoner of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, and as she mentions offering Rand the opportunity to rule the world alongside her (which lanfear did earlier in the series) we can be pretty damn sure that Cyndane is Lanfear. Also, Moiraine being alive seems near certain, due to Min's Viewings. So you're right they are safe assumptions. As it is, though, we cannot be sure about the exact circumstances of her "death". Some possibilities include killed by the Finns, killed by Moiraine, or even suicide.

Still would like to know how many sisters are nameable in the WT at present, out of the hundreds that are there. But here is another question which must have been answered before -

Is it possible Caddy has lived longer as she somehow took less oaths than the other AS?

Not really. Cadsuane has stated her belief in the importance of the Oaths, so for her to have removed one or more seems unlikely. Also, she has the ageless face, which requires more than one Oath. Also, she is just under three hundred years old - which is old, to be sure, but not so much so that it is beyond the bounds of possibility for one bound to the Three Oaths, and she is of the opinion that she probably doesn't have long to live, so it doesn't really fit with what we know.

Rand notices how folks seems happier under the Seanchan then under his rule. Does it not seem werid that Rand takes over and most folks seems angry and yet many seem to like the rule of the Seanchan? I think his relevation of this will push him to the bending a knee to the crystal throne.

Well, it's partly a result of them bringing stability to previously chaotic lands, and also that Rand is supposed to break the world again. There are reasons for the people to be in favour of the Seanchan so it is not all that weird.

Do the two Finn races like each other? The game snakes and foxes makes me wonder if they're old enemies.

Well, we don't know much about them, so we can't say for sure, but we have no real evidence of enmity, and they were both involved in holding Lanfear prisoner, showing a willingness to work together.

#35 DerekS

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 06:34 AM

In regards to the use of the TP: I believe in several interviews with either RJ or BS they state that the TP is very different than the OP by how it impacts the pattern, use of the OP manipulates or uses power within the limits of the pattern while the TP actually destroys or impacts the pattern in a negative way (the example often used is when Ishy Travels in the prologue of tEotW, while traveling with OP works around or through the pattern, the TP in this instance actually burned a hole through the pattern for Ishy to get to his destination). Nothing has been really pointed out in the series that the weaves would be all that different from switching over from OP to TP use but the implications on the pattern are certainly there. There could possibly be some hurdles to overcome but we've only seen Ishy (a man very well versed in using it) and Rand use it breifly (but Rand has a ton of info backlogged on use of OP and during times of struggle tends to have these moments of clarity with the OP, its not too much of a stretch to think he couldve done this with the TP at this point).

#36 Charles Mahan

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 08:45 AM

Has anyone ever asked if the Crystal Throne was a compulsion terangreal?  Based on hints that have been dropped here and there, about the overwhelmingly commanding presence of the Empress, and based on the sheer level of almost blind obediance the Empress is able to command, it would not be suprising to find that the Crystal Throne itself was putting the mojo on people.

Just curious if this has ever been explored.

#37 Auld Manriva

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 09:35 AM

The "Big White Book" (BWB) states that it is a ter'angreal that inspires awe. Nothing stated about compulsion. Could be of course, but anything other than "inspires awe" is speculation.

Quote
Well it was stated in the book that she had done things to extend her life, was it not?


She says that she feels her determination extended her life, but thats codswallop. Her strength is what did it.


Codswallop indeed... that and she's mean as a snake with a sore tooth.

Actually... Isn't she from Ghealdan? I think Codswallop in "Ghealdanese" translates to "Cadsuane" in The Common Tongue does it not?

#38 Rocky_Outcrop

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 10:59 AM

Boy I Think Caddy's Hateful

#39 Charles Mahan

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 11:00 AM

Apparently I shoulda added the BWB to my pre-TGS re-read.  Thanks.

#40 *10_2_Midnight*

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:13 PM

With both Choeden Kal junk now, is Callandor the most powerful Sa'angreal left?