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Will Rand Live?


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#21 argonath

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 06:03 PM

It actually isnt that difficult to understand at least 1 way for him to accomplish this.

How did Birgitte resurrect herself and live again? She was dead, and sitting in the dream world awaiting the wheel, or the Horn, and got pulled out prematurely.

And is living again ... sort of outside the wheel.

Now, if Rand dies, and is not killed by balefire, then there is a VERY good chance he will be in Dream Land (being channeled by Art Bell no doubt), and somehow he can be pulled out of there... maybe by Nyn or Egwene, and be able to survive by the links of his wives.

Just my thoughts.

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#22 Chel Vanin

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 06:52 PM

I'm not sure, I personally would like to see Rand live but I hate when main characters die in ANY book, don't know why. I think that Lews Therin (or at least his voice...) will die and Rand will live. Not sure but I think its the "Dragon Reborn" who must die in the last battle not "Rand al'Thor". But hey you never know RJ is one sneaky guy :)

#23 Genesis_XVI

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 07:10 PM

I think he'll survive. I doubt RJ would introduce a plot line as poetic as "to live, you must die" with no intention of it happening.

I don't think it'll happen as Argonath suggested however. I mean, there is no evidence to suggest that the Dragon's soul would reside in T'A'R between lives. The Dragon is the creator's hero, not a hero of the horn.

Secondly, even if by some miracle of chance that the Dragon's sole did reside in T'A'R, it took Moghedien to remove Birgitte. Despite Lanfear's claims, Moghedien was the queen of the world of dreams, and by all accounts makes what the most experiecned wise ones do look like the fumbling of a drunkard. Egwene can't match that. Ny certainly can't. And even if Eg could, would she??

Thirdly, whether he was balefired or not makes no difference. Balefire doesn't destroy a soul. It merely cuts the thread at a time before it happened. Balefire's power and mystique lies in the fact that not only is it unstoppable, but it circumvents time - something not even Shaitan can do. As such, it can bring people back from the dead, or unravel the pattern.

Lastly, why does everyone hate Rand so much? He's by far my favorite character, and one of the best hero's in modern fantasy. I would be lying if I didn't say his inaction in the last 3 books hasn't been frustrating (bordering on infuriating) but I think this is a testament to two things. First, RJ's view that a hero never does it alone. Second, that a gallant charge (none-too-subtle metaphor for filling in time with "courageous action") won't win a war that requires a meticulous plan.

- Genesis_XVI

PS - Anyone who hates Rand because they think he's stupid is an @ss. Rand has demonstrated an understanding and intelligence that goes beyond what anyone could expect. He's gone from tending sheep to fighting toe-to-toe with the forsaken (and winning!!!!). He understands what's needed, and devotes time and energy to understanding phrophecy and gathering intelligence. Because Rand didn't secure the black tower, or bend to the Witches doesn't make him an idiot.

#24 argonath

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 08:20 PM

You make some good points, but we may see some details that havent been addressed.

One, you can die FOREVER if killed in TAR... see Hopper talking to Perrin, and Slayers actions.

Two, what is the result if you GO INTO TAR fully... not in dream mode, or after dying. If you are killed that way, what circumstances arise?

Third, Moggie may have been the queen of TAR as a mortal, but Im pretty sure thet the DO controls death and TAR much more than Moggie does. Or Ishy/Moridin when he was chasing them down in their dreams in Book 1.

I do not have a clue or conjecture about what will happen if he dies, and lives again, but one thing about the heroes of the horn struck me when you brought up that Rand isnt tied to the Horn...

The Heroes saw him as Lews Therin... so the incarnation of Rand himself may be different AFTER the final conclusion is announced... ie., he will return with NO sembalance of being the Dragon, but instead will just be a regular man.

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#25 Thread7

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 08:30 PM

I don't like or think that Rand would get ripped out of the dream world Briggette is now no longer part of the wheel I don't think the world would be in good shape for the next age if the Dragon Reborn was torn out of the wheel. I may be wrong but Im pretty sure thats not how it going to happen.

#26 Besolyn

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 10:06 AM

I think Rand will live. The Finns see ALL of the threads of a person’s life. Certainly they knew of the future presence of Lews Therin in Rand’s head. What if “to live, you must die” is speaking to the TWO people only the Finns know of at that point?

Min’s vision of Rand and “three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it” does not mention who or how old the women are. Also, Min’s viewings are not always completely literal.

One other thing, the Finns told Mat when he demanded to know his fate, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again (emphasis mine)…"

He also had to die to live per say. If he had not gone to Rhuidean, he would “have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled."

Mat has already been brought back from death, and that didn’t even take the OP. I’d be interested to see Perrin go through the Aelfinn door. The three have been so closely linked that for Rand & Mat to die & live I wonder if Perrin has a “resurrection” in store.

#27 HighLordXanthus

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 11:07 AM

Why is it assumed that the soul of the dragon is not a hero of the horn. Hawkwing recignised him at falme. That would suggest that before being reborn the dragon was in tel'aran'rhoid.

It is my belief that all souls that the pattern spins out for a specific purpose reside there between incarnations and are thus tied to the horn. In that light, they are all the Creator's Heros. Spun out to accomplish what is needed to turn the age lace in the direction needed. Further, I propose that all hero's of the horn are ta'veren as well, though all ta'veren are not hero's of the horn.

I dont see rand dying and returning from TAR as how he will live again, that just seems to complicated. It is an interesting theory though !!

#28 rochaid

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 02:15 PM

i personall think rand will actually die but come back in a way that no-one suspects and in a way we have not seen before,i hope he does,i don't get all the rand haters...i mean he had got to save the world..his reward???death,and then half of the world s tryin to kill him

#29 Chel Vanin

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 03:49 PM

Someone said something in a previous post that realated to my thoughts on Rand living but Lews dying.

What if when the finn's said "to live (concerning rand) you must die" (then speaking to Lews). That would make Lews happy seeing as how he REALLY wants to die, and make Rand happy because he wants to live out his days with he 3 wives...Therefore proving that even if sadin is clean, Rand is insane ;)

#30 argonath

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 02:20 PM

Moiraine said that death was something that could NOT be healed.

Except all ASedai said that severing couldnt be either.

Maybe Nyn or Moiraine figure out a way... OR its done through both Saidar/Saidin combo.

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#31 n00l3y

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 12:21 AM

I don't think that Rand will live. I actually kinda like him, but he deserves to rest. I don't really support the Moridin swap theory (although it is interesting) and I think Rand would kind of want death. His body is deteorating, he has a madman inside his head and he himself may already be losing his mind. But I'm not very sure about this simply because of one factor, his wives. But he if he breaks the world, and in the process kills everyone around him, he will be just like LTT.

#32 Lews Therin Telamon

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 11:45 PM

It has been plainly shown to Rand that there is a way for him to live after the Last Battle. The way hasnt been explained yet, but a way definitely exists. Id be as much annoyed with RJ if Rand was dead at the end of the series as I would if Tarmon Gaidon happened. I want to see how RJ puts Rands death into it, and how Rand returns, which he really REALLY should

#33 dyring

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 02:23 AM

B) Elaida once had a premonition that the Andor Royal Family (Elayne) will play a vital role in T'G.


Gotto comment on that.

Elaida made a mistake, Its not the current royal family of andor it means, it the royal family at the time of the premonition. Aka Tigraine, Aka Rand´s mother.

And yes, Id say rand is going to play a vital role in TG :)

//dyring

#34 Lews Therin Telamon

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 04:11 AM

Quote "Id be as much annoyed with RJ if Rand was dead at the end of the series as I would if Tarmon Gaidon happened"

yea I meant if Tarmon Gaidon never happened. dont laugh

#35 Luckers

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 04:59 AM

B) Elaida once had a premonition that the Andor Royal Family (Elayne) will play a vital role in T'G.



Gotto comment on that.

Elaida made a mistake, Its not the current royal family of andor it means, it the royal family at the time of the premonition. Aka Tigraine, Aka Rand´s mother.



Actually the foretelling was that the royal line is whats important. A line is a sequence of points, so i rather doubt it was referring to any one member of that line in particular. And we've seen as much, Rand, Morgase, Galad, Gawyn and Elayne have all played important parts.

It has been plainly shown to Rand that there is a way for him to live after the Last Battle. The way hasnt been explained yet, but a way definitely exists.


When was a way to survive Tarmon Gaidon plainly shown?

#36 Leopoled Boothe

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 08:49 PM

Yes, Rand will die and his body will be laid to rest at Tar Valon. This will lead to the legend of al'Thor who was laid to rest at Tar Valon which with several thousand years and a couple of mispronunciations will fade to the myth of Arthur who was laid to rest at Avalon (alla Aurtherian Legend).

#37 Luckers

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 12:34 AM

I doubt that... for one thing Rand's world is our future, and i doubt the legend would last through a full turning of the wheel.

#38 aznprince001

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 08:59 AM

Why does everyone want Rand to die? If he does die it shouldn't be because of the effects of Tarmon Gaidon, and if this happened in the 2nd and 1st age, why is the Dark One keep springing out again? It is impossible to kill or lock up the Dark One Permanently? Is their no way we can reclaim Lan's homeland? Will the Blight ever be able to support human life again?

-It would would be really annoying if the Dark One can get free every age.

#39 moroten

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 12:59 PM

Ever considered the fact that the Finns did not see Rand Al'thor...they saw the The Dragon Reborn.

The Dragon reborn has to die in order to fulfill the prophecy and if he dies he will live on in the wheel of time, waiting to be reborn again.

He Rand doesnt die, the Dragon reborn is dead since the prophecy was unfullfilled and the Dark one will rip the wheel of time apart.

#40 Luckers

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 01:15 PM

It did occur to me, but the problem is there is other evidence suggesting that Rand himself as he is at current will not die. The corpse that fades away, the masks, Egwene's dream of people mourning a man who is not yet dead.