Elayne...The Weakest Link?

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Has anyone else noticed that although even though the Tower considered Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve to all be geniuses in things concerning the OP, Elayne seemed to be the least talented of the group? All three were remarkably strong and had different skills and weaknesses​, but somehow she had the short end of the stick when it came to practical application.

Nynaeve was the strongest, able to match Moghedien in raw strength and trying with a past Amrylin as the strongest woman to call herself Aes Sedai since the AoL, only had to be shown a weave once, and was unmatched as a Healer amongst female channelers. Egwene was an amazingly fast and dexterous weaver and was unmatched in her ability to innovate and create new weaves as needed (her ability in this area even amazed Elayne and Nynaeve), and also , like Nynaeve, was equally strong in all five Powers (something that was almost unheard of), and, due to being forced by the Seanchan, was gaining her strength that had never seen before.

 

Where does that leave Elayne? True, her potential matched Egwene's, but in actual strength Egwene haf far surpassed her. She was a quick weaver, but admitted that Moiraine probably could weave faster in her sleep. Egwene was supposedly only average at Healing (although she was good enough to impress the First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah), but Elayne could barely Heal a bruise. Other than her strength, her sole claim to fame was her ability to make ter'angreal, which admittedly​ hadn't been seen since the AoL, but the other girls each had done something that hadn't been since since the AoL. Is just me, or waz she kinda the 3rd wheel? Even Aviendha had some unusual abilities... Does anyone else agree?

[jack of shadows]

 the weakest link for what exactly?events precipitating the last battle,

and the last battle itself weren't a relay race,each and everyone of

them had a different role to play,it's meaningless to define someone

like elayne who was destined to be queen of andor from the moment 

she was born by her abilities(or lack thereof) in the one power,elayne,

will always be queen of andor first and aes sedai second or third or fourth,

rand was the most powerful channeler in the world,yet,his two most

valued lieutenants couldn't even channel so?

Edited March 14, 2017 by jack of shadows

[BFG]

Egwene was stronger in the books because she was forced in Falme. Given time Elaynes strength would have matched Egwenes again.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Egwene was stronger in the books because she was forced in Falme. Given time Elaynes strength would have matched Egwenes again.

Yes, that's what I meant by practical application...True, her potential matched Egwene, but Egwene was stronger right now, and hadn't reached her potential...It usually takes until about age 30 to do that, and apparently Egwene was already close to hers and wasn't 20 yet. That implies a big difference in actual strength.

 

I guess third wheel wasn't a good way it put it, but its true that other than her unusual OP strength and her ter'angreal-making, most of her notable achievements weren't related to Channeling, and one things that add to that is, whenever the three of them were together, Egwene was the one who did most of the channeling (she was the most skilled) except when involved Healing or needed brute strength, then there was Nynaeve(she was the strongest), so where does that leave Elayne? It just always seemed she wasn't made out to be as amazing as the other girls....Even Aviendha was able to match her and Egwene, was good with weather, could tell what a weave should do just by reading the OP residues, and had the totally unheard of Talent of being able to tell a ter'angreal's purpose just by touching it.

 

I feel that RJ only made her powerful because it contrasted with her mother's weakness and it meant that she'd be high-ranking sister ,plus it advanced the plot by giving our spoiled Elaida a reason to have enmity towards her.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Kesiera_Sedai

[BFG]

 

Egwene was stronger in the books because she was forced in Falme. Given time Elaynes strength would have matched Egwenes again.

Yes, that's what I meant by practical application...True, her potential matched Egwene, but Egwene was stronger right now, and hadn't reached her potential...It usually takes until about age 30 to do that, and apparently Egwene was already close to hers and wasn't 20 yet. That implies a big difference in actual strength.

 

I guess third wheel wasn't a good way it put it, but its true that other than her unusual OP strength and her ter'angreal-making, most of her notable achievements weren't related to Channeling, and one things that add to that is, whenever the three of them were together, Egwene was the one who did most of the channeling (she was the most skilled) except when involved Healing or needed brute strength (she was the strongest), so where does that leave Elayne? It just always seemed she wasn't made out to be as amazing as the other girls....Even Aviendha was able to match her and Egwene, was good with weather, could tell what a weave should do just by reading the OP residues, and had the totally unheard of Talent of being able to tell a ter'angreal's purpose just by touching it.

 

I feel that RJ only made her powerful because it contrasted with her mother's weakness and it meant that she'd be high-ranking sister ,plus it advanced the plot by giving our spoiled Elaida a reason to have enmity towards her.

I thought the identity ter'angreal was Nynaeve? The only time in the books I remember that being a 'thing' was after they were seperated.

 

It was also Elayne who spent time trying to learn weather weaves, although I cant recall how proficient she or Egwene were.

 

When did Eg have more discoveries other than when she had Moghedian as prisoner? Because I think there were only two not including that, gateways and cuendillar?

 

I'm not sure we're talking the same things with regards strength. Eg was forced, so was much closer to her full strength (say 90%) while both Nyn and Elayne weren't (say 40%). The numbers are purely an illustration and NOT based on anything.

 

But if they were all alive, in 50 years time or so elayne and eg would be equal strength and Nyn wayyyy out in front.

 

I never felt in the books that elayne was less skilled or powerful but I think maybe more emphasis may have been put on the other two?

 

 

I think I may be overdue a reread lol

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Nynaeve got frelingd from ter'angreal, but it was non-specific...In KoD, it's revealed Aviendha can tell you exactly what one should do...Yes we know Elayne will eventually equal Egwene, but that's not useful right now...As for Egwene, several times we see her invent a weave on the spot (most notable is when they meet in TAR in book 13 and she invents a weave to trick someone into trying to eavesdrop, Elayne and Nynaeve look at her in amazement).

 

I just meant her best moments didn't involve channeling...she goes into battle with other channelers twice, and is defeated both times by women who are much weaker, and the second time she was using an angreal that made her twice as strong as Nynaeve...

 

Nynaeve lacked Egwene's ability to innovate, but she was able to duplicate any weave she sees once. yes, Elayne was talented in Cloud Dancing, but that wasn't unusual in of itself... Moiraine was talented in this area too (remember the fog in TEotW?), and apparently there weren't no living Aes Sedai who could match the Sea Folk...I'm not saying she wasn't talented, it's just that at some points it's shown that even though she was gifted, a more experienced channeler could overcome her in a contest, even if she was much weaker.

 

As a side note, according to the Companion, Nynaeve was pretty close to her full strength...(she'd been Channeling for 7-8 years, remember)? But they never tell how close Elayne is.. Even Aviendha, who matches her potential, is listed as 11(+2), so we know exactly how close she was to her potential.

 

 

Yeah, I often reread my favorite books (lol)...I notice something new every time....

Edited March 14, 2017 by Kesiera_Sedai

[Vetra]

A bit late to the discussion, and haven't finished the books only recently started on tPoD. Elayne may not be that great of a channeler even with her OP strength being so high but she could make bigger weaves than most due to her training with the sea folk and you can't look past her being able to make ter'angreals, she is the only person who can it seems more likely that RJ wanted to show the different talents AS had and not have a bunch of characters who could do anything. Plus Egwene wanted to learn everything whereas Elayne and Nynaeve both focused on learning one thing. So their desires may have played into what they could do.

[Faroresdragn]

Has anyone else noticed that although even though the Tower considered Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve to all be geniuses in things concerning the OP, Elayne seemed to be the least talented of the group? All three were remarkably strong and had different skills and weaknesses​, but somehow she had the short end of the stick when it came to practical application.

Nynaeve was the strongest, able to match Moghedien in raw strength and trying with a past Amrylin as the strongest woman to call herself Aes Sedai since the AoL, only had to be shown a weave once, and was unmatched as a Healer amongst female channelers. Egwene was an amazingly fast and dexterous weaver and was unmatched in her ability to innovate and create new weaves as needed (her ability in this area even amazed Elayne and Nynaeve), and also , like Nynaeve, was equally strong in all five Powers (something that was almost unheard of), and, due to being forced by the Seanchan, was gaining her strength that had never seen before.

 

Where does that leave Elayne? True, her potential matched Egwene's, but in actual strength Egwene haf far surpassed her. She was a quick weaver, but admitted that Moiraine probably could weave faster in her sleep. Egwene was supposedly only average at Healing (although she was good enough to impress the First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah), but Elayne could barely Heal a bruise. Other than her strength, her sole claim to fame was her ability to make ter'angreal, which admittedly​ hadn't been seen since the AoL, but the other girls each had done something that hadn't been since since the AoL. Is just me, or waz she kinda the 3rd wheel? Even Aviendha had some unusual abilities... Does anyone else agree?

Yeah, I get what youre saying, this bothered me a little bit too. Out of all the female leads, Elayne didnt really have any significant special talents or traits, other than being the queen of andor, which whoopdi-doo, way to be born into the monarchy and still have to fight to keep the throne. and way to have your one significant talent (other than the terangreal thing) be something like 13 people had the potential of taking from you. and yeah Nynaeve was super strong, great at healing, was good with all 5 powers, Egwene was super good at weaving, and was also a natural dremwalker (which i think you forgot to mention somehow), and even Min, who couldnt even channel, had her visions, which was honestly the coolest power of all of them. Avihenda didnt really have anything super special or unique about her, but her being the aiel lead female and a wise one in training makes up for that. 

 

So honestly the only cool things about elayne were that she discovered how to make some terangreal, and that she has Birgitte as a Warder, which was just a circumstantial thing. definitely the 3rd wheel when her, nynaeve, and elayne were together.

[Sabio]

Not sure why everyone is discouting the importance of discovering how to make ter'angreal.  How is that not a really good special talent, it's a pretty big deal.  I think people get too hung up over channeling.  Elayne's importance was never going to be channeling, she was to be the first open Aes Sedai queen in a long time.  Also don't forget Egwene had alot more training with on how to do stuff.  The wise ones seanchan etc.    All three were strong, Elayne just seems to be the one who channeled the least.

[fionwe1987]

The "weak link", such as it is, is actually Nynaeve. RJ is on record saying that as of CoT, Elayne and Egwene would pass the test to become Aes Sedai easily, while Nynaeve would struggle. Cadsuane's assessment of Nynaeve's channeling skill, miraculous with Healing but dismal at anything else, also matches this.

 

It isn't that Nynaeve can't be good, but she's just never bothered. She can copy a weave just seeing it once, but so can Elayne, Egwene and Aviendha. What sets the others apart is how much work they put into learning a lot, whereas Nynaeve's focus was always Healing.

 

Elayne, while never matching Egwene's sheer speed, dexterity and innovation, was never shown to be a slouch in the One Power department. She was a few levels weaker only because of the fact that she hadn't been forced to the same extent Egwene was. And we know she wasn't weak in any of the Five Powers either, since making ter'angreal needs good strength in Earth and Fire, and we know Elayne is good with Air and Water because of her weather abilities, and we've never seen her struggle with Spirit.

 

End of the day, they all had different focuses, skills and abilities. Egwene's were the broadest and she made the best use of them, but that was also because she was the best student of the lot, who focussed on learning everything she could.

[Orderofolde]

Has anyone else noticed that although even though the Tower considered Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve to all be geniuses in things concerning the OP, Elayne seemed to be the least talented of the group? All three were remarkably strong and had different skills and weaknesses​, but somehow she had the short end of the stick when it came to practical application.

Nynaeve was the strongest, able to match Moghedien in raw strength and trying with a past Amrylin as the strongest woman to call herself Aes Sedai since the AoL, only had to be shown a weave once, and was unmatched as a Healer amongst female channelers. Egwene was an amazingly fast and dexterous weaver and was unmatched in her ability to innovate and create new weaves as needed (her ability in this area even amazed Elayne and Nynaeve), and also , like Nynaeve, was equally strong in all five Powers (something that was almost unheard of), and, due to being forced by the Seanchan, was gaining her strength that had never seen before.

 

Where does that leave Elayne? True, her potential matched Egwene's, but in actual strength Egwene haf far surpassed her. She was a quick weaver, but admitted that Moiraine probably could weave faster in her sleep. Egwene was supposedly only average at Healing (although she was good enough to impress the First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah), but Elayne could barely Heal a bruise. Other than her strength, her sole claim to fame was her ability to make ter'angreal, which admittedly​ hadn't been seen since the AoL, but the other girls each had done something that hadn't been since since the AoL. Is just me, or waz she kinda the 3rd wheel? Even Aviendha had some unusual abilities... Does anyone else agree?

She had amazing talents in both creating Ter'angreal and in figuring them out to a point.  Avhienda was far better at reading Ter'angreal and puzzling out their uses.  Perhaps she came across as lesser as you read because of her mannerisms and high airs from being highborn and the daughter heir of Andor?  All had their strengths as well as their quirks.  Elayne pushed the boundaries, became a great leader that her people needed, as well as had the foresight to realize that what Mat offered in the form of the Dragons would secure her seat of power for quite a while.  She was an incredible negotiator for one so young bringing the Kin into the fold, the Seafolk Windfinders, and had her part in correcting the weather.  Lots of other accomplishments once you get past all the bath scenes, lol.

[Sabio]

Also have to remember IMO there was too much of a push by RJ and BS to make Egwene the super wonder girl.  So I tend to ignore alot of what she does since I truly think she was being made so great to be the female Rand, so they sort of over did it with her being so great at everything.

[fionwe1987]

Also have to remember IMO there was too much of a push by RJ and BS to make Egwene the super wonder girl.  So I tend to ignore alot of what she does since I truly think she was being made so great to be the female Rand, so they sort of over did it with her being so great at everything.

This is kind of meaningless as a statement. RJ was the writer. If he saw Egwene as the best channeler among the women, she IS, since she's his creation.

[Sabio]

 

Also have to remember IMO there was too much of a push by RJ and BS to make Egwene the super wonder girl.  So I tend to ignore alot of what she does since I truly think she was being made so great to be the female Rand, so they sort of over did it with her being so great at everything.

This is kind of meaningless as a statement. RJ was the writer. If he saw Egwene as the best channeler among the women, she IS, since she's his creation.

 

 

Hardly meaningless as there was a push to make her the best.  So to compare the others and trying to say so and so is the weakest link is pointless as Egwene was made to be the perfect one who was powerful, good with weaves, learning new weaves, dream world etc...  Where the others had strengths and weaknesses.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

Also have to remember IMO there was too much of a push by RJ and BS to make Egwene the super wonder girl.  So I tend to ignore alot of what she does since I truly think she was being made so great to be the female Rand, so they sort of over did it with her being so great at everything.

This is kind of meaningless as a statement. RJ was the writer. If he saw Egwene as the best channeler among the women, she IS, since she's his creation.

 

 

Hardly meaningless as there was a push to make her the best.  So to compare the others and trying to say so and so is the weakest link is pointless as Egwene was made to be the perfect one who was powerful, good with weaves, learning new weaves, dream world etc...  Where the others had strengths and weaknesses.

 

So? You can interpret this as you like, but the fact is this is RJ's work. He hardly made Egwene perfect, but in his own words:

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan, Harriet McDougal, Alan Romanczuk, and Maria Simons. “The Wheel of Time Companion.” iBooks. 

 

 

She had many other abilities and Talents, including abilities with metals and ores and the making of cuendillar. Whatever Egwene did, she did to the hilt. She was keen to learn above all, and so she was as much Brown as Green in her temperament, with a strong dose of Gray besides.

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan, Harriet McDougal, Alan Romanczuk, and Maria Simons. “The Wheel of Time Companion.”

 

The explanation for why Egwene is good is simple: she puts the most work into it, seeks the best teachers, and gives it her all when asked to learn anything. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by fionwe1987

[Sabio]

 

 

 

Also have to remember IMO there was too much of a push by RJ and BS to make Egwene the super wonder girl.  So I tend to ignore alot of what she does since I truly think she was being made so great to be the female Rand, so they sort of over did it with her being so great at everything.

This is kind of meaningless as a statement. RJ was the writer. If he saw Egwene as the best channeler among the women, she IS, since she's his creation.

 

 

Hardly meaningless as there was a push to make her the best.  So to compare the others and trying to say so and so is the weakest link is pointless as Egwene was made to be the perfect one who was powerful, good with weaves, learning new weaves, dream world etc...  Where the others had strengths and weaknesses.

 

So? You can interpret this as you like, but the fact is this is RJ's work. He hardly made Egwene perfect, but in his own words:

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan, Harriet McDougal, Alan Romanczuk, and Maria Simons. “The Wheel of Time Companion.” iBooks. 

 

 

She had many other abilities and Talents, including abilities with metals and ores and the making of cuendillar. Whatever Egwene did, she did to the hilt. She was keen to learn above all, and so she was as much Brown as Green in her temperament, with a strong dose of Gray besides.

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan, Harriet McDougal, Alan Romanczuk, and Maria Simons. “The Wheel of Time Companion.”

 

The explanation for why Egwene is good is simple: she puts the most work into it, seeks the best teachers, and gives it her all when asked to learn anything. 

 

 

We can basically use RJ did it or that's how RJ wanted it as answer for almost every topic.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

 

Also have to remember IMO there was too much of a push by RJ and BS to make Egwene the super wonder girl.  So I tend to ignore alot of what she does since I truly think she was being made so great to be the female Rand, so they sort of over did it with her being so great at everything.

This is kind of meaningless as a statement. RJ was the writer. If he saw Egwene as the best channeler among the women, she IS, since she's his creation.

 

 

Hardly meaningless as there was a push to make her the best.  So to compare the others and trying to say so and so is the weakest link is pointless as Egwene was made to be the perfect one who was powerful, good with weaves, learning new weaves, dream world etc...  Where the others had strengths and weaknesses.

 

So? You can interpret this as you like, but the fact is this is RJ's work. He hardly made Egwene perfect, but in his own words:

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan, Harriet McDougal, Alan Romanczuk, and Maria Simons. “The Wheel of Time Companion.” iBooks. 

 

 

She had many other abilities and Talents, including abilities with metals and ores and the making of cuendillar. Whatever Egwene did, she did to the hilt. She was keen to learn above all, and so she was as much Brown as Green in her temperament, with a strong dose of Gray besides.

 

Excerpt From: Robert Jordan, Harriet McDougal, Alan Romanczuk, and Maria Simons. “The Wheel of Time Companion.”

 

The explanation for why Egwene is good is simple: she puts the most work into it, seeks the best teachers, and gives it her all when asked to learn anything. 

 

 

We can basically use RJ did it or that's how RJ wanted it as answer for almost every topic.

 

Yes, which is why it is rather bizarre that you complain about it here. Egwene IS the best of the three at channeling. Saying "RJ did it" doesn't change that.

[Sabio]

I really am confused what you're going on about.

[fionwe1987]

Also have to remember IMO there was too much of a push by RJ and BS to make Egwene the super wonder girl.  So I tend to ignore alot of what she does since I truly think she was being made so great to be the female Rand, so they sort of over did it with her being so great at everything.

I am talking about this post of yours.

 

You cannot ignore facts of the series just because you think the authors should have written things differently.

[OlwenaSedai]

And Egwene is definitely not perfect. She has a lot of flaws, some are corrected during the series, others aren't. She messes up several times, etc. But unlike some (most) of the other characters she seems to learn from her own mistake and realize she isn't perfect - much thanks to the harsh reality check she got when she was with the Aiel. Egwene is also very preoccupied with not having favourites, but she still raised Elayne and Nynaeve instantly upon becoming Amyrlin... which none of them were ready for, and which was hard to swallow for many of the AS. Not a very wise move on her part. But I like Egwene for being so strong, yet still being flawed - much like Rand. He is also very flawed, maybe one of the most flawed characters, for a long time. He refuses to listen to advice, has weird priorities, sometimes seem to think of himself as almost a god and thus underestimating others, he has trust issues but at the same time fully hands his heart (and sense) over to those he loves. He is flawed, but that is what makes him believable as the Dragon Reborn.

[Sabio]

Wait Egwene learned from her mistakes? 

[fionwe1987]

Wait Egwene learned from her mistakes? 

Uh... yes. 

[Sabio]

Sure we read the same series?

[fionwe1987]

Sure we read the same series?

Probably not. Yours must have had many sections blacked out. I'd search for the originals and read them with an unbiased mind.

[Sabio]

I read it all, but honestly don't remember Egwene ever learning from her mistake and rarely even admitting she was wrong..  It's one of my gripes about the wonder girls is so many times they can't admit they were wrong and keep making the same mistakes over and over.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Sabio