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Posted by Dragonmount.com on November 1st, 2006 in the |
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Ben, Carrie, and Andrew get sidetracked by some great voice mail (a big THANK YOU to all callers) discuss multiple threories this week as well, as well as an in depth discussion concerning Tuon. More on Seanchan coming in episode 20! Listen Now:
 Episode 19: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download |
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23 Responses to “The 4th Age – Episode 19”Leave a Reply |
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80 megs? Maybe the podcasts could be encoded at 64kbs mono from now on – that would save a lot of bandwidth. The content is excellent, as we’ve come to expect.
I know it’s a huge file but we’re battling right now to find a happy medium between file size and sound quality. This is also one of the longest podcasts to date. As always, please direct any questions/comments to podcast@dragonmount.com
Thank you for everyone’s patience as we work through the technical side of things. Our goal has been and always will be bringing you a high quality (content and sound) podcast based on this series we all love.
Ben2
hi there- just a quick correction- tuon is the daughter of the nine moons which means that the empress- her mother- is the nine moons- so rand will bind tuon who is now the empress and not the heir.
Frida’s right. Great analys.
And to the PC, great show. Keep it up!
Heal the Dead!!! Haven’t yall read/seen Pet Semetary!!!!!
Does Rand know Elayne is pregnant? he disappeared to cleanse the taint right after elayne found out and i don’t think Min told him maybe i’m wrong. But i don’t think rand knows elayne is pregant
In response to your discussion about what Thom says he didn’t see- I think he was referring to Selucia’s fighting ability which shouldn’t faze the battle hardened gleeman, but consider this-
1. Selucia to this point appears to be Tuon’s handmaiden, probably meticulously beautiful.
2. In the fight she’s probably wearing shoes and a pretty dress that can’t help much with mobility.
3. Selucia probably uses her shoes, scarf, hair combs, and other feminine accessories as weapons, and lastly,
4. Selucia, who has been trained since childhood to protect Tuon as her bodyguard, is likely to have a fighting style that is absolutely vicious and merciless.
I can see Thom not believing his eyes.
well put, I made a similar comment in a previous posting in for a different episode.
But:
1. Tuon – and therefore possibly all the highest among the Seanchan – do in fact know, that all sul’dam could learn to channel, what means that it is known and accepted(!) that Tuon could channel if she wanted, too (she openly handled damane earlier).
2. If so, when they can accept that, why couldn’t they also accept secret bodyguards masked as handmaids or the like that can channel? The only ones they could tolerate to have that ability and not being leashed as damane would be da’covale, who throughly accept that they are property. And Selucia is da’covale and Tuon’s to the bone.
3. A secret channeler around would be the perfect way for the high among the Seachan, esp. the possible heirs to the Crystal Throne, to ensure their survival, even if an attack with a damane would happen (f.e. if someone would try a nasty, small weave to kill from the shadows), that would go unnoticed otherwise; even the highest among the Seanchan cannot have an own damane around 24/7, but a handmaid…
4. If the bodyguard would be forced in the open to channel to protect her master, there wouldn’t be any problem afterwards. She would be named maret’damane that just hid her ability somehow over the years or “magically” gained it suddenly and would be replaced by an other, after she had been executed for something like treason (why not leash her, see below).
This would make the knowledge of how to mask the ability to channel necessary for those bodyguards, but there is no conflict in just them knowing it. The Seanchan would have no interest in letting this knowledge being commonly available, because other maret’damane could be harder to find that way or damane hidden for an assault harder to detect in time. If a bodyguard’s ability to channel would be discovered, she would have to die to keep this knowledge tight, but executing a maret’damane that was so close by a high Seanchan would practically go without saying. It’s the obvious next step.
5. Look how ruthless even brothers and sisters kill each other among the high Seanchan. And look what flat out rubbish Toun’s rant about her being able to learn to channel was. High Seanchan are so full of themselfs and just got used to believe what they are saying, that they could work around their “unwavering” principles as easily as an Aes Sedai can work around the “don’t lie” oath. So there is nothing in this wreched culture, that would rule out hidden channelers as bodyguards. Literally nothing.
6. And I just cannot imagine Thom reacting this way even if a child would have killed those man barehanded before his eyes. He would utter his respect with a nice flourish of his coat, but he would not act as if he had seen a ghost. Remember, he is also pretty much into Selucia and he is very good in figuring out, how things work among the high, no matter where. If he suspected what I wrote above, he would have every reason to deny what he saw the woman he has a crush on do.
But either way, this remains a theory. One that seems to work though. It very well might be, that Selucia just tuned into berserk and left Thom in astonishment…but I admit I wish that there is more
Oh……..one other thing that just crossed my mind……what if it was Tuon that channeled?!? What if the knowledge of masking the ability is just present between the High Blood and above to hide the ones among them that have the ability inborn? What if the ability to channel is necessary for the heir of the Crystal Throne to work it? What would lead us to the other theory – the Chrystal Throne being a ter’angreal, with it’s counterpart being the crystal throne Rand saw on the grand plaza in Rhuidan when he went there first. This would fit even better and lead to something of a greater scale…which I like even more
I know you want the best quality possible but would it be possible to put up two versions of the podcast, a small bad quality one and a large good quality one. I’m sure there are many people out there like myself who can’t download an 80Mb file for numerous reasons.
I had thought ever since I read that chapter that it was Tuon who Thom had seen channel, not Selucia. We KNOW Tuon can channel, but is opposed to doing so. That is what would have left Thom amazed: That a woman did something she so despised to protect a man that she so loves.
Because Tuon does so love Mat.
And how could you not?
I know I do.
We do neither know if Tuon really can channel (we only know that she could learn it and that she claimed that she refused to LEARN it) nor does she love Mat yet (she can imagine, that it might come to it one day, but it hasn’t happened yet).
Can the dead be returned to life? I seem to recall that during that nasty battle at Caemlyn,that several of our friends (Mat, Aviendha, Asmodean) were blasted dead by Rahvin’s lightning bolts. A bit later Rand Balefired Rahvin into oblivion, which unraveled the Pattern far enough back to return Mat et al to their pre-death state=back to life! Could it be that there is a forgotten Weave or Talent that actually does the same? Not exactly healing Death, but rather, undoing it…
The dead cannot be brought back to life even the forsaken have said this.(I belive moghedien) But the reason why mat aviendha and asmodean were still alive after the battle with rahvin is because of this. When rand killed rahvin he put all of his power into the balefire. Balefire as we know not only eliminates the person but their actions back in time for a certain period. The more power used in balefire the farther back in time. Moiraine admits that she could only erase a few minutes of a persons actions with her power. Around this time egwene came to the realization that she matched moiraine in power but not in expereiance. Not to long ago in tear she and elayne visited rand in his rooms to make rand know that egwene did not want ot marry him and elayne wantd to be more than his freind. during this conversation they treid to learn about rands power and maybe help him understand what he was doing with it. He handled elayne and egwene like the were kittens already in a sack. After asmodeans teaching how string do you think he is in the power mostlikely able to remove a persons actions from the pattern for at least a couple hours or so.(men strength in the pwer also grows in bursts) This is the reason why mat aviendha and asmodean were still alive rahvins bolt of lightning never touched them though they still have the memory of it. As I remember rand was surprised that he could do this.
i made notes while listening to the last cast. i loved the length but missed jayson’s hand on the tiller. i’m not putting the rest down but the format changed a bit. jayson needs to stay away from future dragoncon events as his health took a big hit after that. yeah, and my dog won’t eat a burger.
**all of the following comes with a big IMO warning label**
for an easy way to put all of the RANDom facts into some semblance of order i highly recommend the site http://www.encylopaedia-wot.org. all of the books are condensed by chapter into 1-2 paragraph snippets that touch upon the major points. not all points but you get the jist if you are familiar with the books. it is not too unlike what jayson’s chapter by chapter reviews are. all of the prophesies are there as well as one of the most important and telling factors – min’s readings. they are relevant to what is current and not from 2000 year old tellings that seem a little wack at times.
1. that 1st wild theory was out of left field and made no sense to me. sorry dude, but i read this story a long time ago and had to do so with every release. it didn’t go with the flow.
2. which three women are standing around a funeral bier? min’s viewings never said who they were, simply the fact that three women were there. how many women does he have around him? cadsuane is there like a tick and it appears nynaeve is there because of her or because rand is ta’veren. he has the seanchan woman alivia with him as well as min. is it ever said that min, elayne and aviendha would be the three. which leads to..
3. nynaeve will be able to bring rand back from death at that point. she will be here when he takes the hit and she will learn something from semirhage or another forsaken that hasn’t surfaced yet. semi could be one of the women around the bier.
4. as far as the three boys being ta’veren, rand is the most powerful ta’veren in whatever history they can go back and find – or jordan can invent for us – and of course his two closest buds are with him. whoever spoke to rand at the end or TEoTW probably has some hand in that as well. if it was said “it will not be here” the alliance of ta’veren can be arranged to end it. it was strange how egwene and nynaeve just so happened to be aes sedai out of nowhere as well.
5. the whole mat segment was offrail and seemed to touch on the fact that mat is smitten by tuon no matter what. he would bend over backwards to lick his heels for her and she would let him to see him actually do it. they are not that far removed from out society in the manner in which he tries as hard as he can to win her affection she spurns him. a boy in love does anything for a girl that plays hard to get. the harder she plays, the harder he chases. onsider the razor, the hell, the bolts of silk for dresses and the rides in the country on their horses. she finally gives over and marries him. i don’t think his other concerns even touched his thoughts of tuon. maybe he swirling colors that turn into rand but that’s about it. sure the aes sedai and seanchan wannabe’s are a pain but he is back on tuon at any chance.
6. something that taints the understanding of any that channel is we, as the readers, have been educated in the aes sedai catechism of the one power. the white tower, their boot camp and apprenticeship program is something that is unknown of in the seanchan or windfinder POVs except by rumors or assumptions. the same is true of what aes sedai know of others.
7. whether it was selucia, tuon or both isn’t the real point that stands out to me. the fact that uontuon puts on a facade to the outside world that she cannot channel is a puzzle. to handle a damane we know one must be able to channel. most sul’dam seem ignorant to this and i suspect it is played off by those of the blood. i suspect tuon is devious and can do some nasty stuff as can selucia; the finger talk is yet another thing that divides them from the rest. how similar is it to the maidens handtalk? i am more than curious as to whether mat can channel. did the finns put that foxhead on him to safeguard him from the one power as well as prevent him from channeling?
9. does the marriage of and if mat can channel, ultimately fulfill this?
“The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.”
10. has tuon gone through a ter’angreal and dealt with finns or had some other form of ESP type of experience to allow herself be taken off by mat and hold her tongue at all times she was able to be saved by any seanchan soldiers? maybe there is something more to the seanchan society than what has ever been disclosed. i have really some really bad theories that made no sense at all; as if it were another story. i discount them. we really know nothing of shara as jordan hazed over anything in writing about it; the guide included.
again…IMO
woo…too bad i can’t edit the above; there are a lot of typos.
since i am unable to edit and can’t stand to read the original i will post it again w/edits.
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i made notes while listening to cast# 19. i loved the length but missed jayson’s hand on the tiller. i’m not putting the rest down but the format changed a bit. jayson needs to stay away from future dragoncon events as his health took a big hit after that. yeah, and my dog won’t eat a burger.
**all of the following comes with a big IMO warning label**
for an easy way to put RANDom facts into some semblance of order i highly recommend the site http://www.encylopaedia-wot.org. all of the books are condensed by chapter into 1-2 paragraph snippets that touch upon the major points. it does not touch on all points but you get the jist if you are familiar with the books. there are footnotes which are addressed at the end of each chapter’s synopsis and makes for even more thoughts about any theories. it is not too unlike what jayson’s chapter by chapter reviews are. from what i can discern, most of the prophesies are there – except those from shara or some other obscure sources – as well as one of what i consider to be the most pertinent in the “here and now” – min’s readings. they are relevant to what is current and not from 2000 year old tellings that seem a little wack at times. mat’s memories serve him well but when you think on it they are from the far past as well.
1. that 1st wild theory was out of left field and made no sense to me. sorry dude, but i read this story a long time ago and have had to do so with every release. it didn’t go with the flow at all.
2. which three women are standing around a funeral bier? min’s viewings never truly point to who they are, simply the fact that three women are there. how many women does he have around him at all times? cadsuane is there like a tick and it appears nynaeve is there because of her or because rand is ta’veren. he has the seanchan woman alivia with him as well as min. it is never said that min, elayne and aviendha would be the three. which leads to…
3. nynaeve will be able to bring rand back from death at that point. she will be there when he takes the hit and she will learn something from semirhage or another forsaken about healing that no one currently knows of; thus making her the greatest healer in the aes sedai rolls. semi could be one of the women around the bier.
4. as far as the three boys being ta’veren, rand is the most powerful ta’veren in whatever history they can go back and find – or jordan can invent for us – and of course his two closest buds are with him. whoever spoke to rand at the end or TEoTW probably has some hand in that as well. the words were said “it will not be here”; the alliance of ta’veren can be arranged to end it. i find it rather strange that egwene and nynaeve just so happened to be kick ass aes sedai out of from the boyhood village of rand al’thor. consequential? who is “the chosen one”?
5. the whole mat segment was off and never seemed to touch on the fact that mat is smitten by tuon no matter what. he would bend over backwards to lick his heels for her and she would let him to see him actually do it. they are not that far removed from our society in the manner in which he tries as hard as he can to win her affection yet she spurns him. a boy in love does anything for a girl that plays hard to get. the more she resists, the harder he chases. consider the razor, the hell, the bolts of silk for dresses and the rides in the country on their horses. she finally gives over and marries him. i don’t think his other concerns even touched his thoughts of tuon. maybe the swirling colors that turn into rand but that’s about it. sure, the aes sedai and seanchan wannabe’s are a pain but he is back on tuon at any chance.
6. something that taints the understanding of any that channel – we, the readers, have been educated in the aes sedai catechism of the one power. the white tower, their boot camp and apprenticeship program is harped on throughout the story but is unknown of in the aiel, seanchan or windfinder POVs except by rumors or assumptions. the same is true of what aes sedai know of others. its like different christian religion pointing their fingers at each other and condemning. how many times have we seen the reference to “we must get her/them to the white tower for training before they still or burn themselves out”?
7. whether it was selucia, tuon or both isn’t the real point that stands out to me. the fact that tuon puts on a facade to the outside world that she cannot channel is a puzzle. as readers of this story we are onto the fact sul’dams, those that handle a damane, are able to channel. most sul’dam seem ignorant to this and i suspect it is played off by those of the blood. i suspect tuon is devious and can do some nasty stuff as can selucia; the finger talk is yet another thing that divides them from the rest. how similar is it to the maidens handtalk? i am more than curious as to whether mat can channel. did the finns put that foxhead on him to safeguard him from the one power as well as prevent him from channeling?
9. if mat can channel, does his marriage ultimately fulfill this?
“The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.”
10. has tuon gone through a ter’angreal and dealt with finns or had some other form of ESP type of experience to allow herself be taken off by mat and hold her tongue at all times she was able to be saved by any seanchan soldiers? there is a novel full of the seanchan society that would explain far more than what has ever been disclosed and it should have been done in the span of 3 of those books that read as if in stasis.
i have read some really bad theories that make no sense at all – as if mine do – here and on other sites. i discount them. we really know nothing of shara as jordan hazed over anything in writing about it; the guide included. i try to follow the flow of events as have happened since book 1 and remember the fact that the wheel turns in a cyclic manner.
again…IMO
I dont think Mat can channel, but it has been made obvious that Tuon can and that she knows that she can. She also has gotten psychic readings which made her be on the look out for certain things and she has figured out Mat is the one slowly as she has learned more about him.
I don’t really have a whole bunch of time to post, but I’ll get a bit in.
zacz, I am talking to Ben #2 to see if we can do this.
frida, right. I believe it is called the court of the nine moons, so i think it is the Empire, and we are told the Empress is the empire.
Eugene, no I don’t think Rand knows about the twins.
Brian, I agree with yolindamo and ThoroSOE. I think it was Tuon channeling, IMO I cannot see Thom acting that shocked to see a woman take out a bunch of men. He is too wise and has seen much.
ThoroSOE, Tuon does love Mat, she just doesn’t know it yet.
drsarav, I agree with Aidan.
Mike, lol good post. Although I do believe that Rand’s 3 loves are the 3 women around the funeral bier. I think that Alivia will come up with a way to make Rand appear dead, and Nynaeve will be there to make sure it is done right and bring him back completely. I don’t think Mat can channel, although my husband has thought it. He also thinks Mat will be turned. I like the idea that Tuon has gone through a ter’angreal of some sort. It would make sense. Or it could just be that she already knew she was fated to marry him, so occasionally keeps quiet.
Oh, and Mike, I hate to break it to you, but we are trying to see if we can make plans for ALL of us to go to Dragon*Con next year! How about I promise to try and make everybody boost their immune system durring our trip so we won’t get sick??? We will have lots of time to work on the technical stuff and plan a great live show.
carrie,
as you could tell, the dragoncon remark was very tongue in cheek.(dog-burger?) just make sure you are all taking 500 mg of vitamin C as well as a vitamin B complex daily a week before as well as while there. oh, wash your hands a lot and/or carry a bottle of purel with you.
your husband thinks mat will be turned into what? that’s curious, have him get on here and spout off with the rest of us. as far as tuon being in love with mat, the story has already led us to know that she has the full capability and will. kadere told her mat loved her and she ponders the point of her father being in love with her mother…yeah, she falls and actually already has. she played up the hard to get stone cold b**** routine and put him through hell for a long time but she gave in.
i am not convinced the 3 women around the bier are min, avi and el. i think min’s reading would have pointed that out; especially if one of them were to be her. as with the aes sedai POV of using the power, everything becomes taken for granted until the odd wrench is thrown into the gears.
egwene and rand are still tied together in some fashion, though not romantically. she being the amyrlin and he being DR is far too coincidental for me. “light, egwene!”
that’s probably one of my favorite exclamations from the very beginning – almost 20 years ago – along with mat’s “flaming bleeding blood and ashes” or whatever else he can spin out of that. if you ever meet someone who uses those you can be sure of where they got it!
as far as her going through a ter’angreal; what is the crystal throne? i think there may be more than one solitary ter’angreal on seanchan soil.
When Thom says “I’m an old man and sometimes I see things that can not be” he’s referring to Selucia’s fighting skills, her being trained as Tuon’s personal guard. Before that point neither Thom or Mat see Selucia as anything but a maid with a nice bosom. Selucia is supposed to keep her talents hidden, making her more deadly. When she reveals herself in the fight this surprises Thom but he plays it off. Selucia does not channel, she would have been found in the testing they do, the best she could do is to be one who could be taught to channel, but who would teach her?
crossed swords
This is because most knife manufactures switched to stainless about the time they stopped heat treating their blades. Serrated blades