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Posted by Virginia on April 30th, 2009 in the |
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The Forsaken Revisited, Part 3. Please join Andrew, Virginia and Jayson as they continue their new discussion of the inimitable villains of he Wheel of Time, the thirteen Forsaken, or as they prefer to call themselves, the Chosen. Part 2 covers Sammael and Semirhage.. As always, we go into all the books of the Wheel of Time series, from New Spring through Knife of Dreams, so if you haven’t finished your first read-through, you may want to come back to these podcasts when you have, as THERE WILL BE SPOILERS. Part 1 covered Aginor, Be’lal, Ishamael, Balthamel, Asmodean and Graendal. Part 2 covered Lanfear, Rahvin, Moghedien and Mesaana. Listen Now:
 Episode 50 - The Forsaken Revisited, part 3: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download |
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33 Responses to “Episode 50 – The Forsaken Revisited, Part 3”Leave a Reply |
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Typo in the description – should say “Part 3 covers Sammael and Semirhage”
=)
>>Marc
4th Age Podcaster
grrr – I was sure I changed that! Drat the Forsaken – they always manage to mess things up!
Virginia
4th Age podcaster
who has been using a Blackberry so much she can’t type on a regular keyboard anymore!
Wow 3 episodes in only three weeks we’re being spoiled for sure!!!
Thanx guy’s
We ARE trying….
Virginia
“Sammael is pretty buff!”
Wow, that was a long time ago.
Really enjoyed the podcast on the Forsaken. Was wondering why Demandred was not mentioned? In the aol was he not a general? I think he was responsiable for the traps in Rhuidean. I think he is tied to taim in some way anyway that is my idea. Does anyone know where he is now?
I think the whole scene of Semirhage’s capture went exactly to her plan. As Jason said, she knows she can do a lot more damage from the inside. She came into that fight knowingly well underprepared, and she also probably knows of Rand’s hesitancy to kill a woman.
She was already sowing discord within 2 minutes of her capture, look at the bombshell she dropped on Rand and his followers telling everyone about how he hears Lews Therin. Now we just have to wait and see if things will continue to go as planned for Semi, or will Cadsuane win this battle of wills? At least that’s my opinion.
In talking about Semirhage, you mention Tuon needing to go back home to wrap up the mess left there from the slaying of her parents, and when she is going to do that. I seem to recall reading somewhere…I think Brandon Sanderson mentioned it, that the plot of Mr Jordans planned outrigger novels was Tuon and Matt going to do that. Loved the podcast. Thanks!
I think Semirhage will have under-estimated Cadsuane(sp?) if she did intend on getting caught. I think she was just under-prepared though through her arrogance.
Also, when you spoke of some of Semi’s plotlines, you forgot to mention that she has been masquerading as Tuon, and doing bad things in her name. She was also Tuon’s Truthspeaker, not the Empress’, but that is a minor detail. I do not think she planned on being captured. We know from WH that the Forsaken are unaware of Ter’angreals that affect weaves (Cyndane was surprised by Alivia’s). If her disguise hadn’t been blown, she would have most likely succeeded.
Hey guys, most of the time I don’t leave a comment but I enjoy listening to your show as relaxing less distracting type podcast. Anyways, I just wanted to say that I loved the One Winged Angel/Sephiroth reference. I’ve never thought about in connection to the WoT, but it is one of my favorite orchestral pieces of music ever (i actually had it as my ringtone for a while). So hearing someone mention it made my day, thanks.
Hey teckdeck2008-
Thanks for the comment about my horribly geeky reference. I never know when my encyclopedic knowledge of copiously useless trivia will be of use, or recognized when I do choose to use it.
Thanks to everyone else who continues to comment as well. It is all really good stuff, and it ultimately helps us make better shows.
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Suravye ninto manshima taishite.
[...] The 4th Age Podcast Episode 50 – The Forsaken Revisited, Part 3 [...]
Hey guys, nice work on the podcasts.
How’s this for a whacky (and completely unresearched) theory… Perrin goes to the dark side!
He seems to have the most susceptible personality – self centred and emotionally immature. He’s also been isolated from his true friends for significant periods of time and is now almost completely reliant on – and fixated with – on Faile.
Actually, Faile seems the only thing preventing Perrin from losing all empathy.
Consider the Perrin’s reaction if Faile were to be killed – especially if he believes Faile’s death was a result of Rand’s actions (or perhaps, inactions). Could be a tipping point.
Perrin seems to share many personal attributes with Anakin Skywalker and we all know what happened to him…
Perrin would catch a royal ass kicking from Rand, Mat, Egwene and Nynaeve if he were to do so. I should add Lan and Moiraine when she come back from the land of Finns. The First of Mayene as well.
The wolves would shred him for extra measure.
Some of us might have a sigh of relief if Faile was knocked off. She took up far too many chapters while a captive of the Shaido.
Did anyone else grow tired of that whiny crap?
This was something I just noticed as I finished Knife of Dreams: In the last chapter as Pevara and her party of fellow Reds are being lead into the Black Tower, she notices the floor tiles (yes, I know, a small thing) are all red and black. Then again, she notices the same thing as they enter Taim’s “throne room” and thinks to herself, “Taim must particularly like those colors.” I know the general consensus seems to be that Taim is really Demandred in disguise or is being controlled by him in some way, but what about Moridin? As we all know by now, Moridin has chosen his colors as red and black. Is it possible that this was one of those rap-on-the-head hints that Robert Jordan loved to give us? I have a tendency to agree with the current theories out there about “Taimandred”, and I have nothing else to offer to elaborate on my idea, but that little snippet keeps coming back to me. As Moridin grows more and more influential over his peers, maybe he has also taken Demandred into his covey of followers as well. After all, we haven’t had any legitimate action from his character as of yet. Any thoughts?
Didn’t they just talk about how RJ said there that Demandred is absolutely not masquerasing as Taim? I belive he said he’s someone we haven’t seen yet.
Bentley – I guess I didn’t catch that. I remember that there was some discussion about Taim having been turned by the 13/13 combination of Black Ajah and Myrddraal, but either way, we still don’t know for sure where or who Moridin and Demandred are posing as. I thought if there were still enough debate over the “Taimandred” theory then Moridin could pose as an alternative.
I have been thinking about two things. First, the prophecy that says, “”Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth.” This to me suggests that Rand will be killed but brought back by balefire. At the minimum, someone is going to die from a large blast of balefire, enough to send time backwards to cause a second dawning.
Second, I am thinking that Balwer is Demandred. Amador would be in the south. Balwer is a manipulator who knows more than he should. He is positioned in the right places.
Robert Jordan has specifically said that Demandred’s alter identity has not yet been seen in the books. Sammael like those black an red colors as well, so my theory is that Taim has taken over for Sammael, and maybe is even posing as him.
Perrin is a little on edge (you would be too if your entire family was killed because of who you were), but there is little chance of him becoming a bad guy, simply because of the wolves. He may become an animal if Faile is killed, but he won’t turn evil.
I found nothing Whiny about Faile’s POV’s during her capture. She organized quite a following, as a matter of fact, and held everything together long enough to be rescued.
If anyone was whiney during Faile’s Shaido interlude, it was Perrin. I could totally relate, but I confess that I did find it quite wearing.
I agree with you, Mike, Perrin would catch it from all of the above if he turned. Moiraine PROMISED them early on that she would destroy them herself rather than let the Dark One have them, soooo… they’ve got that going for them.
Moridin or Demandred either one could be running Taim, but Jordan made it pretty clear that Demandred, at least, is not someone we have already seen. But Sammael said Demandred liked using proxies, and Taim and the darker Asha’man fit that bill pretty well.
There was an off-hand reference by the other Forsaken to someone posing as Sammael, but I can’t recall at the moment where it was in the books.
I really think if anyone reminds me of Anakin Skywalker it is Rand – he broods about everything, worries incessantly about going mad, and has determinedly made himself hard as steel.
I could see Rand stupidly turning to the dark side “for the greater good” much more than Perrin, who is a pretty simple and uncomplicated soul. Rand has made himself very susceptible to the Dark One without meaning to do so, in my opinion. Additionally, he’s been carrying around wounds in his side from the Dark One (or Baalzamon/Ishy) and Shadar Logoth for so long that that might seeping into him, and I actually think those wounds and the evil they carry may be the cause of his sickness. Damer Flynn sealed them off, but not permanently or completely, after all.
Mind you, I don’t see that happening, because if you think Perrin would receive a royal whupping for going bad, it wouldn’t be a PATCH on what Rand would get from Elayne, Min, Aviendha, Egwene, Nynaeve, Moiraine, Lan, Tam, Alanna, Cadsuane, Alivia, Wise Ones, and any number of others! I’d actually like to be there to see that! It might make Tar’mon Gaidon pale into insignificance!
Virginia
4th Age podcaster
Luke, I agree about the balefire causing a huge time-shift to make the day dawn again and Rand come back “from the dead” as Mat did – and Asmodean, for an hour or so at least. “To live, he must die” amd there are only a few ways he can do that, one obvious one in the WoT being balefire. Unless resuscitation counts as coming back from death, a la Buffy. And Mat, after the Finn bounced him. Personally, I wouldn’t count that as dead. If they can be resuscitated, that may be clinically dead, but not REALLY dead until they’ve been flatlined awhile.
Heather, maybe all bad guys just like black and red. It’s in the manual, or something. I suspect another RJ red (and black) herring here. A little butter for the cat’s paws, while he’s off laying another plot line altogether.
I can’t see Demandred allying himself with Moridin short of a mindtrap, though. He’s just too self-absorbed and arrogant to be a minion. I don’t know what he’s up to, but I guess unless Brandon has a weak moment before then, we’ll find out in the next exciting episode, The Gathering Storm.
What’s with the new cover, anyway? NOTHING about it says Gathering Storm to me…. I like the covered missing hand though. Not sure about the dragons on his arms, but they look cool. Is that Alivia behind him? I thought she was taller… Or does he get back together with Elayne or Aviendha in this book? Or am I just missing something completely obvious because it’s late and I’m seriously tired? Probably….
You can follow some of us on Twitter – Podcast is @4thAge, and also check out @dragonmount.
And me as well – @Tialin.
I’ll tweet y’all as soon as an episode is up. Also I post to 4th Age on Facebook. I’ve given up on MySpace. Morgan may still be maintaining that one.
Virginia
Wow, I think the UK cover ( http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=515 ) for The Gathering Storm is amazing. Much better than the US one, where Rand looks a head shorter than he should be, as usual. But at least they not are all riding ponies as in the rest of DKS’s artwork. And Lan in full plate on tEotW – pffft! That gripes me something awful. And those saddles! The man that drew those wrap-around pommels and cantels has never swung into a saddle, that’s for sure!
I know I’m ranting, but…. I happen to know a tiny bit about horses and how to draw them… check out my paintings at http://www.hoofprintofthewind.com/pg/gallery1.html
This may be of topic but, do you suport or dislike the idea of the WoT movie? I am seeing it if it gets a 0.2 out of 10 becus i am a fanatic, but I would like to see the 4th Age’s stance on it.
P.S. I think that Min’s abilty is related somehow to the Alfin. Just saing…
there is a couple or early podcasts on the movie idea sherman..
Virginia,
Perrin was the whiny aspect I had in mind – I would have kicked him in the ass if he wasn’t carrying a weapon of sorts – man up Wolfboy!
I think it to be hard to crack the conviction of the superkids at this point. First, they have been fighting and scheming to stay a step ahead of the bad guys since Moiraine and Lan took them from the Two Rivers. Second, they have too many checks and balances within their own associations. Nynaeve is out and about on her own drumming up an army for Lan and his trip to the borderlands. She is the only one truly alone, who knows if any darkfriends have an eye on her? I think she has yet to blow out with her full potential – she lets on to some of it when she cleansed saidin with Rand.
The closest I think of anyone becoming a Sith on the dark side is the possibility that Rand may channel the true power at sometime. It is supposedly more powerful and he could tap into that to wipe out the dark one as well as the foresaken. We have seen what others can do with it at long distances. Is saidin part of the true source? Can he wield it without side effects – like being a ring bearer? I think it’s up in the air. Maybe at Tarmon Gaidon.
I don’t like the manner in which the ashaman are depicted at present. Sure, some of them have bonded with aes sedai and vice versa but what evil does Taim/Demandred have up their sleeves? After all, men and women come full circle when the white flame and the black fang come together in a yin/yang fashion. Wasn’t that what the aes sedai were during AOL?
Someone is planning something.
Boo!!
I don’t believe Semirhage planned on being captured, but she’s resourceful. You can bet she’ll use it to her advantage. I can’t help but think Kadsuane’s met her match with her.
Loved the One Winged Angel reference! I can totally hear it saying Semirhage if I’m not listening too closely.
I could see how Lanfear might turn back to the light. She does seem like the most human when it comes to her emotions. I really wish she would turn back to the light. If not, maybe die while heroicly stepping in front of a fireball meant for Rand? Something to prove she’s willing to give up her life, and/or her current allegiance for love of Rand? I’d hate it if she died, but I don’t believe she’s inharrantly evil. There is more to her feelings than simple love of power. It may be part of why she loves Lews Therin, but that’s not the only reason.
Isn’t it funny how even though Faile was the one who was captured, Perrin was the winy one?
I agree, Kamarile, it was odd. As I said, I can certainly understand Perrin’s feelings. He fought so hard against loving Faile that when he finally fell, he fell hard. I just don’t know if I could have stood much more of the knotted cord, the hammer being hard…. I just love Mike’s comment: “Man up, Wolfboy!” But being sensitive and considerate is his nature, and one of the admirable things about him, after all. It may be his destiny, but he really has to work hard at being a warrior prince. None of them has really embraced their destiny willingly!
Virginia
4th Age
Greetings, Virginia!
I can definitely see your point about Perrinfalling hard for Faile, but I really don’t think I could have stood much more of that either. I guess it just bothers me that he’s so self-centered. He’d let the Great Lord win at the last battle if it kept Faile safe. The others are a bit more altruistic. Yes they have loved ones, but they don’t put them before everything else. It most cases, putting your loved ones first would be a good thing. But for those with such responsibilities on their shoulders, it can have a high price.
Heather,
What are the colors of the board for the game “Snakes and Foxes”?
Isn’t it black and red?
I think Taim was on the “dark” side from the start. When Rand met him there was a reference about Taim having stayed sane for six years. Which he could do with “the dark ones” protection from the taint.